I think that you are right. No doubt. Just for ongoing forum I will add this. SOME of the products in the catalog are NOT priced too high. The amount of hours and material in SOME of the items were so high that those guys were not paid very much if you hour it out. Don't get me wrong, I hope they keep on making their art. I love to look at it as much as anybody. I think they do great work. I'll be back on tuesday. I hope that I will see lots of comments. P.S. Silverchip-Your work looks outstanding on your website!

Well said Dave,

I'm sure not all makers realize what the TCAA has done for all of us as a group. Their continued effort to push the crafts to new heights has inspired many of us to do better work and to realize more realistic prices for our work. Not every marker has the skill, ability or desire to craft all out pieces. To do these all out pieces is very draining meantly and financially.You can get several months and several thousand $$$ tied up in a project befor you get any thig back . It is truely a labor of love of the craft to create these pieces. If the truth be told a maker can probably make more money by doing simpler pieces and not have to reinvent the wheel each time, than by doing all out art pieces. I know not all makers like the work that the TCAA members offer because it won't be used or it is to fancy, but the fact that they are exposing the collector world to wonderful, creative Western Gear expands the market for all of us. To be successful you always need to put your best boot foward and that is what these makers are doing. Keep up the great work.

Any maker who can turn out top quality ,high end work can sure toss something simple together if they want to at anytime. Most top makers wouldn't do it and put their name on it because that isn't what they want to be known for. besides there are many other makers who are already doing the simpler work.

Larry

Great reply! I hope to see more.

Several years ago at the Western Heritage show at Abilene, there was a maker who had a couple really nice California style bits and he couldn't get anyone to look at them. This year at the same show not only would people stop and look at that kind of work, they were willing to cough the money up and buy it. I saw the same thing occuring at the Trappings of Texas show in Alpine. My observation is there is a rapidly growing demand for nicer gear and there are quite a few more makers trying to build nicer gear than there were just several years ago. I'm certain the TCAA should get alot, if not most of the credit for this happening. They are educating the public to appreciate high end gear and they are damned sure trying to help educate us makers. Most of us will probably never do TCAA caliber work, but we are all benefiting from what they do.
Stewart

I was'nt saying that this type of work could'nt be done by others given the proper items.

Fact is that it also takes the right tools, a skillfull hand, an artfull eye, and of course plenty of money.

Speaking for myself, I don't have everything it takes right now to produce such work.

That's why these are the things my dreams are made of!.......

Hopefully one day I can fit togather all of the pieces of the puzzle needed to do such items, and make my dreams come true!....

Until then, I will not sit idle though. I'll practice, and study what/when I can. Practice, and save my money. Practice, and get all the knowledge I can from others. Practice, and keep reading/participating in great forums such as this one.

As always any, and all feedback is welcome!......

_________________
Billy & Amber Dodson.
BAD Western Wurks.
Geronimo,Tx.

Leonard,
Heres my opinion on the question you asked. I can think of several makers I'm aware of who aren't in the TCAA but are capable of doing that level of work (in my opinion). And there are surely a number of makers out there with the ability to eventually do TCAA caliber work, but the question is how many of them will have the discipline and dedication it takes to get to that level.
Stewart

Where's Larry when you need him!!!!!!!!!
There are plenty of people out there that can do even more exceptional work than the TCAA guys.
Being a member of the TCAA is a choice and a huge commitmet.Alot of people choose to not participate for that reason .
The main reason there are not more members in the TCAA is that in order to be a member ,you first need to apply.It's not going to get easier than that.
Don't forget that the focus of the TCAA is to perpetuate these crafts and thier art.

_________________
I'm only as good as you think I am.

Let me first say Dave, I admire and respect your work tremendously and what I am about to say transpired before you became a member of the TCAA. But regarding the TCAA Dave. As a silversmith I applied and was denied. I did make it clear that I greatly desired to be considered as a peer among the members and to become a participating member of the TCAA body. I was willing to put in the time and commitment. However, Chuck Stormes said I did not have what it takes to measure up to the silversmithing benchmarks set forth as a whole by The Traditional Cowboy Arts Association. I was snubbed, life is short, nothing I could do about it except keep on doing my best. So now, through this forum and Sam Alfano's forum, I freely share my knowledge and participate as much as I possibly can in advancing our art and our craft with many other aspiring men and women. Here is a photo of one of the Trappings of Texas "BEST OF GEAR" trophy buckles I made for that event. Don Potter (saddle maker) won this buckle. You be the judge if the design is appealing. Is the workmanship crisp and clean? How is the symmetry of the hand engraving. In the silver band that forms the inside border, each one of those tiny little squares there are 15 individual cuts alone. How much did Sul Ross University and the Trappings of Texas pay for this buckle? Drum roll please........ A whopping $0.00 This and the other one I made were donated.


Respectfully yours & with kind regards,
Greg Pauline

Greg,

As always, beutifull work from a truely stand-up guy!.... Hats off to ya, can't wait to see/hear more!... Very inspiring!....

_________________
Billy & Amber Dodson.
BAD Western Wurks.
Geronimo,Tx.

Great looking buckles,Greg.I've only seen a few of your pieces and I like them alot.Personnaly,I would like to see what else you like to make.
I didnot know any one else had applied as a silversmith before I had.Despite the critcism you recieved at that time,Hve you made any changes in the way you go about yourwork? and if you have ,did you think it has helped or hurt your quality or reputation any?
I think what you're doing with this and the other forum is great,Keep it up.Don't forgetr that as long as we all are promoting our crafts,there will be a demand for excelent work.Good for all.

_________________
I'm only as good as you think I am.

GREG

WHAT HAPPENED TO (COWBOY) IN THE TCAA.

MOST COWBOYS I KNOW DON'T OWN EQUIPMENT LIKE THE EQUIPMENT LISTED, THEY COULD NOT AFFORD IT AND YES I KNOW A LOT OF OLD COWBOYS. I LIKE TO LOOKING AT THE EQUIPMENT FOR THE ARTISTIC VALUE. SORRY YOU WERE SNUBBED.

In my conversation with Chuck Stormes I explained that when I was a younger man and in my passion of wanting to be a full time self employed silversmith; in the pursuit of living where I wanted to live and also to be the husband I dreamed to be and to be the father to my kids that they deserved to have, I elected to walk the path of least resistance.
Because I was afraid (without faith) of never having enough work to support my family, I took on several well known and respectable wholesale accounts. I made product for them and stamped their name on the back. They received all the credit. In most cases I was just referred to as "their silversmith". I also was able to acquire some rodeo trophy buckle work but because no one ever really had heard of me, I had to offer them at a discounted price to get my foot in the door (big mistake). So as a result I never made anything with the "hope" that it would sell soon because everything I made already had an owner before it went out the door. To me this was safe.
As a result of this decision, my reputation was only known by the few rodeo associations along with my wholesale accounts who were mostly happy to keep me as their well kept secret. Because of this lack of reputation, it was nearly impossible to attract any "Big Names" with a big budget that would afford me the opportunity to design, build and engrave the pieces that I desperately desired.
In an effort to break away from my isolated comfort zone (the one that paid the bills regularly) and on the advice of Don Potter (saddle maker) I contacted the Traditional Cowboy Arts Association and Chuck stormes because he knew him personally. Well Chuck had an opportunity to view some of my work and he told me that it just looked too "commercial". I explained further that I was still looking to find the type of patrons that could afford the very fine pieces that I was capable of making. Lord knows, I could not nearly afford to make them myself and then hope they would sell soon. His only reply was, "Well that's your problem".
Dave, you asked if I made any changes. The answer is, kind of. My biggest account wanted me to sign a contract that gave me every bit of the short end of the stick. So I did not sign it in January of 2007. This account averages approximately $28,000 annually. Now that is a big change. I quickly tried to get into some shows but found out that to get accepted into the bigger shows you need to have your deposits in 6-12 months in advance. But I could get on the waiting list. Fortunately because other people have deemed my work good enough, I have been ushered to the front of the line on these waiting lists.
I'll tell you what though, it's like starting all over again and it is tough! The bills and the mortgage are still hounding me to be payed. But now I have had to find the money to buy jewelry cases to go along with all that new show booth equipment & stuff. So far my 10' by 10' booth has cost me anywhere from $375 in Nampa, Idaho to as much as $1100.00 in Sacramento, CA. Then there is the money for gas to get from here to there. Lodging and food was not free. Then there was a question with what kind of pieces for inventory can I fabricate and engrave with the money that is left over that can turn a profit so I can pay the bills and try to build more stuff.
As a result I am still making more of the same "generic", "commercial" and "semi-custom" pieces in an effort to have enough profit to invest in tools, equipment and more importantly to be able to stock more of the precious metals materials that are required to build and engrave the type of ultra custom pieces that you and the other members of the TCAA are so very fortunate to be engaged in doing.
What I really have come to cherish recently is the validation I have received from some of the most esteemed gun and knife engravers by virtue of the accolades they have articulated towards me in regards to my hand engraving. It is a pleasure to be considered a peer.
Dave, only the LORD knows if I will ever receive the chance to have the type of patrons or collectors who have either recognized or identified the TCAA as the ultimate benchmark of the fine artisan/craftsman silversmith. What I do know is that the good LORD has encouraged me to passionately do my very best work on each and every piece I make and engrave; from the most generic commercial piece and all the way to the one of a kind pieces I will one day acheive.

With most kind regards,
Greg Pauline

P.S. here is a close up of Don Potters tooling.

Hey Greg,

Welcome to the CLUB. I would bet a good set of spurs that just about all the full time makers TCAA or otherwise all have similar stories of hard times ,rejection, success. failure. and lack of $$$ .But I sure they all have a great deal of satisfaction in making the choise to be a craftsman/ artist. Very few makers will ever get rich working with their hands but the personal satisfaction they get from taking nothing and making soomthing out of it is worth alot.

It has been said that to make a masterpiece it takes three things
1 the idea
2 the ability to do the work
3 the guts to take the chance to do and finish it

I've been a full time maker for 20 years and it is still a fulltime job just to keep ahead of the bills . It seem like the more you make the more it costs to make it.

Maybe someday my schedule will let me find time to try and get into the TCAA but until then I'll just keep hammering and banging on steel until I get it figured out and do the best I can.

I would like to add that as I look back through the old TCAA catalogs the one thing that stands out is that every maker has develpoed a very recognizeable style that sets their work apart. This is a hard thing to do and takes quite awhile to develope but is one of the most important things a maker can do to insure their success in the future.

The buckel you did was very nicely done which shows you have the ability to do the work but in all honesty it didn't show any personal flare that I'm sure you have. Keep up the good work

Larry

Larry~ That is exactly the point I was driving at when you said, "The buckel you did was very nicely done which shows you have the ability to do the work but in all honesty it didn't show any personal flare that I'm sure you have". To reiterate, I am basically starting over because I am of no reputation and am seeking the kind of patrons that will afford me the opportunity to make and engrave what I can really accomplish (personal flare). To acheive these opportunities there are people who are receptive to helping someone with obvious talent and then at the other end of the spectrum there are people who act as if they care but when it comes down to it, they are really very callous and as I was told, "we have to be careful of who we help make famous." So my point is that this story is not over because I am determined to bring my "personal flare" to light, but in the mean time I take pleasure in doing the very best I can in every piece I touch.

As a side note I would also like to add that I am a fan of quite a few of the TCAA members and there presence in this exclusive association is fully warranted without a doubt. For some time now I have been acutely aware of the fact that I will never be a member of the TCAA. I am OK with that, as I am positive that the members of the TCAA are too. Life is short and it is what it is.

Sincerely,
Greg Pauline

Wow! Good threads from everyone. I keep going back and looking at your buckle that you have posted. Great work! I'll bet it did not take 3 months or 3 years to complete. I'll put your talents up against anybody. I think you know that too. The one thing that I have noticed about exclusive group members when they talk about the items they have made is that they really like to talk about "how long it took to make it". For some reason the longer it takes to make, the more people like it. People, be it the customer, or a peer, do not want to hear that you made it in a day or two. Why is that? I wish that I had a dollar for every time someone said to me "that didn't take too long to engrave". In regards to TCA, big fish in a little bowl. In regards to your work Greg. You make your products to feed your family, they make theirs to feed their egos. Now you tell me, at the end of the day, who is better off? Greg, you do not need to be recognized. You ALREADY ARE recognized. In regards to all of these shows, who has time for that. If you are successful you don't have time to spend 3 or 4 days at the show plus prep time. Just send your product and literature to the show and let the show organizer set it up. The potential customers will look at your stuff, take your literature and contact you. Stay in your shop and get the next order out. Hopefully spend some time with the family. This "look what we as a group have done for this industry" bull@#$% does not fly with me. It is more like "look what it has done for our egos". One again Greg, nice work!